Talk:Fräulein

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To User:152.163.100.196 or User:152.163.100.136 -- seems to be the same person

Hi, please stop adding things which you, I and everybody else knows are just not true. You may be longing, for whatever reason, for the good old days, but they are history. All the best, <K F> 22:47, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

Observation about the use of Fräulein

To whoever edits the page... The usage of Fräulein for a waitress is highly inappropriate. While there may be some regions where this still is acceptable, I highly advise not to use 'Fräulein' in ANY way or context when adressing a woman. FYI: I am german and 'Fräulein' is considered highly offensive. Also it is not used as a title to adress young female children. That is simply false. Except when used as a warning or scolding e.g. by parents! The usage may be overlooked if it is clear that you are a foreigner. But don't count on it. 23:00, September 04, 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.142.119.225 (talk • contribs) 23:00, 4 September 2007

This point has been made a number of times by people who claim to be German speakers. See Talk:Fräulein#And again... above. If the article is wrong, change it, and refer to sources that everyone has access to. The article has a source claiming that "Fräulein" is used to beckon waitresses. Find better sources that refute the point. Ask me for help if you have sources that you would like to have included in the article. Darkspots 14:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fräulein was and maybe is used in some cases when adressing waitresses, but it is not recommended any more. Instead "Hallo" or "Entschuldigung" is used to adress the waitress. If you plan to go too germany the best advice is not to use the term at all. Otherwise you will get your drinks considerably later and your chance of fraternising with some of those young ladies formerly known as fräuleins will be zero. On the other hand if you don't plan to jump over the pond you may as well believe whatever you like. :)

The following is a funny story about that waitress issue. Unfortunately I couldn't find an English translation. So this isn't a source to back up anything in the English wikipedia. Recommended for the german speaking folks tho. [1]--Kleiderseller 01:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I feel like this discussion is veering into a general discussion of the term "Fräulein", which isn't the purpose of this talk page. Please see Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines for specific guidelines on this. Without being able to understand German, it seems like this link is to an anecdote--what would move the article forward would be a reliable source that would back up what you folks are saying, not personal experience and illustrative stories. Darkspots 01:18, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if you're young, the waitress is likely to be about your age. In that case, if you use Fräulein, then at least for the time being you ruin your chance of addressing her by first-name or using the familiar pronouns. Fräulein always goes together with surname and the courtesy pronouns, and when you've started to say Sie, the change towards Du is not done lightly.--2001:A60:1500:8701:95C2:F342:199C:A7AD (talk) 16:56, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

There are in fact some sources on this issue:

Bussman, Hadumod & Hellinger, Marlis 2003, "Engendering Female Visibility in German," in Hellinger, Marlis (ed.) Gender Across Languages: The linguistic representation of women ..., Volume 3, Hadumod (viewable at least in part on Google Books)
Hellinger, Marlis, 1980, "Zum Gebrauch weiblicher Berufsbezeichnungen im Deutschen..." Linguistische Berichte 69: 37~58.

[Other works by Hellinger might also touch on this issue.]

Naeve-Bucher, Ursula, 2001, "Schönes Fräulein darf ich's wagen, Ihnen Arm und Geleite anzutragen?: zu Annäherung, Werbung, Versuchung und Verführung in der schwedischen und deutschen Literatur des 18. Jahrhunderts. Stockholm dissertation; see diva-portal.org [historical perspective]
Vandergriff, Ilona, 2008 "Authentic Models and Usage Norms? Gender Marking in First-Year Textbooks," Die Unterrichtspraxis/Teaching German

41(2): 144~150 (available online)

Cramer, a. Q., 1976, "Frau or Fraulein: How to Address a Woman in German.," Unterrichtspraxis, 1976 - ERIC (Discusses the then-current changes)
Bayley, Susan M., 2014, "The English Miss, German Fräulein and French Mademoiselle: foreign governesses and national stereotyping in nineteenth- and early twentieth-century Europe,"History of Education: Journal of the History of Education Society 43(2): 160~186 (Historical)
Zinggeler, Margrit, 2013, "Understanding and Teaching Variations of Every-Day Business Language and Behavior in German-Speaking Countries," Global Advances in Business Communication, 2(1): Article 4.

Available at: http://commons.emich.edu/gabc/vol2/iss1/4

Christen, Helen & Elmiger, Daniel, 2015, "Gender in Swiss German," in Gender Across Languages, Volume 4 edited by Marlis Hellinger, Heiko Motschenbacher [at least partially viewable via Google Books]
Deutsch_als_Sprache_der_Geistes_Wissenschaften.pdf , p. 25, http://publikationen.ub.uni-frankfurt.de/files/31792/Deutsch_als_Sprache_d

+ While the discussion and disagreements on the this page have focused on the use of the word in German, its use and cultural significance in English should not be ignored, e.g., http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/jmh/summary/v073/73.1.wert.html and A Foreign Affair directed by Billy Wilder, and: Hallo Fräulein! directed by Rudolf Jugert, and: The Big Lift directed by George Seaton (review)U Bach - Film & History: An Interdisciplinary Journal of Film and …, 2013 - muse.jhu.edu, andGerman Paradise Mallorca: A Funny Telling (Illustrated with Photos) M Von-Muenchen - 2004 - books.google.com and German English Words: A Popular Dictionary of German Words Used in English RD Knapp - 2005 - books.google.com Kdammers (talk) 01:22, 9 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A source the German Wik cites but that doesn't come up there is 83０．Alsich1969anfing,alsausländischerStudentanderUniversitätMünchenzustudieren,gabesinderMensaeinenbesonderenRaum,indemGästevonKellnerinnenbedientwurden.DieseKellnerinnenwarenmeistensältereFrauen,mankönntesagen,siestandenmeistkurzvorderRente.DieKellnerinnenwurdentrotzdemallemit„Fräulein“angeredet.（MännlicheStudentennanntensiesogarmitunterscherzhaft„Oma“.）DerMensa-Raum,indemmanbedientwurde,existiertschonlangenichtmehr.DamitauchnichtdieKellnerinnenderMensa.UndauchdieAnrede„Fräulein“fürKellnerinnenhörtmaninRestaurantsoderCafésheutekaumnoch.ImJahr1976kamichzumzweitenMalnachDeutschland,diesmalnachMannheim.Dastaunteich,dassdiejungenStudentinnenjetztnichtmehrmit„Fräulein“angeredetwurdenwiefrüher,sonderngrundsätzlichmit„Frau“.AlleoffiziellenBescheide,welchedieMitbewohnerinnenmeinesStudentenheimsbekamen,warenmit„Frau...“adressiert.Ichmusstefeststellen,dassmanjunge,unverheirateteFrauennichtmehrohneBedenkenmit„Fräulein“bezeichnendarf,sondernnurmit„Frau“.AlsowarichauchZeugeeineskleinenSprachwandels,nämlichdesSchwundsdes„Fräulein“unddessenteilweiseErsetzungdurch„Frau“.EinpassenderNachfolgerfürdas„Fräulein“alsAnredefürKellnerinnenscheintallerdingsnoch● Okamura, Saburo "Das Fräulein ist tot! Es lebe das Fräulein !－Fräulein im Archiv der Süddeutschen Zeitung （1994-2005）" https://dspace.wul.waseda.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2065/11342 /1/11S.Okamura.pdf Kdammers (talk) 01:44, 9 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And here is another source: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Fr%C3%A4ulein&year_start=1800&year_end=2015&corpus=20&smoothing=0&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CFr%C3%A4ulein%3B%2Cc0

Kdammers (talk) 01:22, 9 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]